The Dr J Show

Welcome to our newest project. The Dr. J Show is a weekly broadcast with an interview segment that features some of the foremost leaders and thinkers on issues relating to marriage, family and human sexuality. New episodes come out every Friday; catch them here or over at our YouTube channel.


WHO IS THE REAL SAINT NICK?

In this special edition of The Dr J Show, we delve into who is the "Fatman" in the red suit behind the fake beard. Saint Nicholas of Myra in Lycia, who lived about seven hundred years ago, was a Christian bishop and a man of God who fasted and sacrificed his life for his flock. He was not fat, and was a fierce defender of Christianity. He even slapped a man in public! He willingly went to a dungeon prison for faith in Jesus Christ. He also saved women from sexual slavery and men from execution. In this commercialized age, we benefit from learning about the REAL Saint Nicholas.

Come hear the true story of the man who became a Saint. A story of hidden gifts, defending faith, and miracles. In this Ruth Institute Special, learn the truth and the history of this great man who inspired the creation of Santa Claus.

St Nicholas' ancient hymn
In truth you were revealed to your flock as a rule of faith,
an image of humility and a teacher of abstinence;
your humility exalted you;
your poverty enriched you.
Hierarch Father Nicholas,
entreat Christ our God
that our souls may be saved.

St Nicholas' life at oca.org

St Nicholas' ancient hymns: Troparion or  Kontakion


The UN is Forcing Abortion on Africa, but They Don't Want It

Dr Wahome Ngare is a member of the Kenya Catholic Doctors Association, which blew the whistle in 2014 on a World Health Organization vaccine which was secretly laced with abortifacient and sterilization drugs. Their medical investigation shows that W.H.O. researchers conjugated tetanus toxoid with human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) producing a “birth-control” vaccine.

W.H.O. publications show a long-range purpose to reduce population growth in unstable “less developed countries.” Conjugating TT with hCG causes pregnancy hormones to be attacked by the immune system.

“Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race.” – Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger

“At the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth, and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.” – U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg

This episode is also available as an audio podcast. More resources & readings after the cut.


Topics discussed in this Dr J Show include:

  • Kenya does not have a "population problem"
  • the Constitution of Kenya specifically states life begins at conception, and every person has the right to life.
    • Article 26 states abortion is legal if a doctor says the mother's treatment or life or health is in danger. As with Roe v Wade, the word "health" is defined so broadly (depression, stress, etc.) that abortion on demand for any reason can be obtained.
  • If the law is going to consider the right of "choice," both mother & child have this right.
  • Any society that considers itself moral would fight for the person with less power, namely the more vulnerable preborn person.
  • Pro-aborts scare women into believing the lie that abortion is safer than pregnancy. The truth is, maternal mortality is rare; almost zero.
  • In countries with legal abortion, 99% or more are elective, killing healthy babies.
  • NGOs (non-government organizations), often from the U.S., push abortion in foreign countries around the world. They tie compliance with abortion laws with needed funding.
  • "Safe abortion" is an oxymoron.
  • The ideology driving the push for abortion is used to sexualize children, to legalize sodomy and prostitution, and to distribute contraceptives to girls as young as 10 years of age.
  • Over 90% of the Kenyan people do not want abortion or sodomy legalized. NGOs pushing abortion can go against the will of the people by paying corrupt officials.
  • The whole concept of NGOs is foreign interference, including foreign interference in the elections of sovereign countries.
  • For the Sexual Revolution to take hold requires many people to be quiet. All of us must take it very seriously that this is not a fight for one or two people; it is a fight for the survival of the human race. The globalists are everywhere, and people need to stand up against their agenda -- otherwise, we have no humanity left.
  • Practitioners of medicine have to give hope; daily numbers of Wuhan virus infections & deaths do not.
  • There is an agenda going on. Fear is being generated in people. What are we being prepared for?

Readings Resources

 
 
Transcript:

Dr. Ngare

If we are going to discuss the right to life, the letters discuss the right to life of both the baby, and the mother. Both of them have a right to life. And therefore, the Mother cannot decide when to kill the pre-born person, just like she can’t decide when to kill her own child.

Dr. Morse

Right

Dr. Ngare

The section on reproductive health and rights is actually an ideology. It is an ideology, it is a culture. It believes that sex is for pleasure, and everyone should be able to experience it. From children at 4 or 5 years of age. It is being used to sexualize children, it is being used to legalize homosexuality. They want to legalize prostitution. They want children as young as 10 to use contraceptives. And a whole lot of stuff that is completely against what we stand for, even in the constitution.

Dr. Morse

Hi Everyone, I am Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute and welcome to today’s episode of the Dr. J Show. Today I have a very special guest. Dr. Wahome Ngare an OBGYN from Kenya. He is also associated with the Kenyan Catholic Dr.’s Association and he has some very important information for us about public policy going on in Kenya right now. I think Pro-life people all over the world, pro-family people all over the world need to be aware of what is going on in Kenya. Particularly our friends here in the United States in the pro-life movement. I think you are going to be sorry but glad to know, about the information that Dr. Wahome is going to be sharing with us. Dr. Ngare, thank you so much for being with us today.

Dr. Ngare

Thank you very much, it’s a pleasure.

Dr. Morse

Yes great! So, to start with, can you just tell us a little about your association, The Kenyan Catholic Dr.’s Association, because most people won’t have heard of it or won’t know what your mission is.

Dr. Ngare

Well, the Kenyan Catholic Dr.’s Association is an association that brings together Doctors who are catholic, who have taken a vow to practice medicine guided by the catholic faith. So, there are many doctors who are Catholics, but not all doctors who are Catholics can be a member of the association. See you must take a vow that you will serve the medical profession guided by the teachings of the catholic church. We specifically take the old and bastardized hypocritic oath that allows us to practice hypocritic medicine.

Dr. Morse

Oh golly, I recently interviewed Dr. Thomas Hilgers who explained to us that American Doctors don’t take the hypocritic oath anymore.

Dr. Ngare

Yes, and the few who do, it has been altered very many times to remove anything that would be considered anti-abortion and anti-euthanasia. So, a lot has changed. We use the old version.

Dr. Morse

So, you are actually more in tune with the ancient western tradition that goes back to the Greeks. You’re actually more Western than the West.

Dr. Ngare

Laughter*

Dr. Morse

Right? We’ve abandoned our roots over here. That was a beautiful thing that the Greeks came up with before Christ. They figured out that the medical profession had to first do no harm. Dr. Ngare, the reason that I wanted to have you on the program is that I read a couple of things that concern me, and I think will concern American pro-life people. But all of them have to do with population control and abortion, Contraception, related issues. So just to give people some perspective, Kenya has a fertility rate of 3.57 children per woman. In your opinion does Kenya have a population problem? And if so what is the population problem in Kenya?

Dr. Ngare

Well to be honest? Kenya does not have a population problem. In fact, the whole of Africa doesn’t have a population problem. When you look at the world statistics, the world does not have a population problem. What we have is a problem of resource distribution. If you fly over our country you’ll find a lot of land that is not occupied, just like if you flew over the US. There is a lot more than can support the current population. A problem is that there is somebody who is hell bent to reduce the world population, and especially the population of the people in Africa and that seems to be the biggest driver in today’s issue. We all know the population explosion story was a big hoax that has already been proved in the theory didn’t make sense, and what every he described didn’t happen. But there is somebody who took that and ran with it and is spreading a lot of lies.

Now we have seen countries who have taken up what we are being fed with in terms of population control who have negative population growth. Especially the Scandinavian Countries. They will not be able to replace themselves even if they started having six or eight children. We need a big robust population, so the idea is, if you look at human being as a resource, then you want bigger numbers to make sure they remain productive. If you look at the human numbers as a threat, the idea is to reduce the numbers.

Dr. Morse

Right Right.

Dr. Ngare

So, whoever is you know, perpetuating that agenda about population explosion basically has reduction in numbers as their intention.

Dr. Morse

Yes. Do you know, I don’t know if you are familiar with the late Julian Simon who is a professor at the university of Maryland, who wrote a book called “The Ultimate Resource” which meant that Human Beings were the ultimate resource and more people is a good thing and not a bad thing.

7:10 Dr. Ngare

And we would agree with him that all we need to do is insure that they are morally upright, and we’re good

Dr. Morse

Right right and so the family members are taking care of one another and not being left behind for strangers or for the government to take care of. So now, the thing that got my attention is that there is an attempt in Kenya to change the Kenyan Law, the constitution. It’s my understanding that right now the right to life is in the Kenyan constitution, is that correct? Can you tell people about that?

Dr. Ngare

Yes, we have that in article 26 of the bill of rights of the constitution. It makes it very clear that life of a person begins at conception, and that every person has a right to life. It’s a very unique article because it is one of the few that specified that the pre-born person can be referred to as a person in law. So, the conception starting —The life of the person starting at conception and every person having a right to life means that in the Kenyan constitution, the pre-born person is protected under the law.

Dr. Morse

Yes, and there is a move afoot by some of the population control people to try to change Kenyan law. So, can you tell people about that in general, what they are up to, and what particularly is going on right now?

Dr. Ngare

Well, during run-up to the constitution that we currently have that was made in 2010, there were forces from the population control movement through ICPD through the UN and other systems that sponsored people to fight that consensus. The Article 26 ended up with those two portions that I mentioned that were pushed by the pro-life people, but we had and article —Article 260 that was pushed by the so-called progressive forces, and that article says that abortion is not permitted unless recommended by a trained health professional. There is need for emergency treatment for the life or health of the mother.

Now the interpretation of that article is what they are using to try and expand access to abortion. So yeah, the article to us is very clear. It has always been the opinion of the trained health professional that determined that the pregnancy would be terminated or not. This is not necessarily bound to the gestation of the baby. Our argument is simple, the constitution is not a medical document. Abortion just means bringing to an end prematurely. So, they wanted it read differently. To them abortion is just the same as a medical term or whatever is described by them. In which case health professionals would be allowed to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy or not, without due regard to the world of the little one.

Dr. Morse

And so, then the question of maternal mortality becomes an important question. Because if the life of the mother is at risk, and if you can make the claim that the life of the mother is often at risk and can’t be solved any other way —her life can’t be solved any other way other tha terminating the pregnancy— now you’ve opened the door to abortion. Is that really what the issue is coming down to?

11:05Dr. Ngare

Yes, the term “Health” when the life of the mother is in danger, or is in need of emergency treatment, is not a problem. But when they say the “health of the mother” Health becomes very wide, and it can be used in the wrong way. So, what has happened is that there have been two or three ills that we have been fighting from parliament because they have crafted bills that try to bring to life article 26 by providing that abortion can be given as a service. That is where the mischief is. We are very clear that the law as it reads right now, and the practice of medicine, and medical ethics, the law is clearly protecting the little one. Now there is an issue of course, we have been accused of trying to protect the life of the pre-born person, instead of the life of the mother. And nothing can be farther from the truth. I think that what we need to do is clearly distinguish between which right we are discussing. If we are discussing the right to life, let us discuss the right to life of both the baby and the mother. Both of them have a right to life. And therefore, the mother cannot decide when to kill the pre-born person. Just like she can’t decide when to kill her own child.

If you are going to consider the right to choice, then again, both of them have a right of choice, both of them have a right to choice. If the mother says she doesn’t want the child, then we need to ask the child if the child is ready to exist. And the child cannot protect or speak about themselves. In any society that considers itself morally upright will basically fight for the least powerful person. In this case that is the pre-born person. And we are saying it is possible for us to respect the right to the mother, as soon as the child is born, then she doesn’t have to take care of the baby. The child can be taken and put up for adoption and we can release her of any obligations.

Dr. Morse

Right, but she doesn’t have the right to take the life of the child either before or after the child is born.

Dr. Ngare

Yes, and again like we are saying, it is just a simple human mortal body. Life is precious. The mother has every right to say that she doesn’t want to look after the child, and we can’t force her to look after the child. But it would be wrong for anybody to say they are practicing medicine by killing that child as a response to the Mother’s request. Because that would be impossible to do if the baby was born.

Dr. Morse

So, then the issue become, how often does this conflict really arise? What is the maternal mortality in Kenya? How likely is it that a Mother’s life is threatened by the continuation of pregnancy? Now as I mentioned I interviewed Dr. Thomas Hilgers a little bit ago, and he has been delivering babies for 40 years —like you he is an OBGYN— and I said, “Dr. Hilgers how many babies —how many mothers have you lost in that 40-year career?” and he said, “None. I have never lost a mother. I have never had a mother so —and I have dealt with crazy pregnancies.” Because he deals with high risk people and stuff like that. So, tell us, give us a little perspective on healthcare in Kenya. How often is it that a mother’s life is seriously threatened by the continuation of her pregnancy?

Dr. Ngare

Actually, the biggest challenge we have in Kenya and the rest of Africa is hemorrhage —blood loss during or after delivery is the most common killer of mothers. And this is followed by hypertensive disease in pregnancy, and sepsis. When you look at any pregnancy loss contributing to maternal mortality, it would be about 9% or less. What has happened is that those estimates, which are made by foreign NGO’s that come and do research here with wild estimations of maternal death, are what they pedal around with the ministry of health, and they put them in newspapers and they scare people. And they make abortion seem like it is a major concern. Of course, we don’t want to lose any mothers for whatever cost. But if we could sort out the problem of availability of blood, and mothers delivering in health institutions, we would actually reduce maternal mortality by almost half.

Dr. Morse

Right Right. That is the thing, there are other solutions other than killing the baby early term. And one of the problems we have over here in the US, is that we have legal abortions, and they are all supposed to be safe. But mothers having hemorrhages after their abortions and being very poorly treated with follow up care. This is one of the big scandals that the Pro-life movement calls attention to in the US, that nobody in the mainstream media wants to talk about, that sometimes people die from their abortions. So, tell us more, tell us more.

Dr. Ngare

The truth is, whatever the degree of risk abortion has, even assume say you terminate a pregnancy at 12 or 13 weeks, you would lose just 1% of the patients, the thing is once you make it legal, and now you don’t just have 100 people going through the procedure, you have 1,000 or 100,000 that 1% increases. The idea would be that it’s shameful for us as human being to be debating the question about a pregnancy after it has occurred, every adult, male and female, know that sexual intercourse leads to pregnancy. For people to engage and then say that they are shocked or surprised that they are pregnant, really sounds very very unfortunate. So, people have to learn to make good choices. And we are not going to take care of their bad choices by killing their children that they bring into this world. So, I think it is something that we just need to get very clear

Dr. Morse

Yes Yes. In one sense of the word, the numbers don’t matter, because the principle at stake is a principle that we have to defend regardless of the numbers. But the numbers do help us point out, well where should we be looking if we are trying to save both the mother and the baby, what should we be doing? And killing the baby is obviously a non-starter.

Dr. Ngare

In short, if you look at the —even the countries where abortion has been legalized, you realize that up to 90% of the time it is never the life or the health of the mother that is at risk. Most of them are people who are opting for abortion because it is legally available. In which case it makes nonsense of this claim that says, “It is the health of the mother we are worried about.” But even if we come to a basic understanding of medicine —because medicine is basically about the diagnosis treatment and prevention of disease— if a mother comes to me because she is very distressed, she has a crisis pregnancy, and she is wading in anxiety disorders or she might be depressed. If I take her history and examine her, my diagnosis will eventually be, this is a mother with a normal pregnancy who is suffering depression.

The treatment cannot be “Kill the baby” you see, whatever principle you use, whether you use medicine or common sense, the idea would basically be: treat the depression. Treat the anxiety, alleviate that which allow her to give up her child. But it can never be, Kill you baby.

The few times where you have, say an ectopic pregnancy. Where the mother has an ectopic pregnancy the baby is alive, you’ve done a scan, you can see the heart beat, but she is already bleeding, and you know that this will cause death. Then that doesn’t qualify as an abortion. Because the ectopic pregnancy is not a normal pregnancy. And when you go in as Dr. to work on that you are treating the mother, you are not killing the child.

Dr. Morse

Right Right. The pregnancy —This is not a normal pregnancy. This is not a viable pregnancy pretty much no matter what you do. But it is interesting though, that the claims that, “oh we’re all about helping the mother, we’re all about protecting the mother’s health.” That has led people to make other kinds of claims that are not necessarily accurate. And I have a sense that these same NGOs are exaggerating the extent of maternal mortality in order to justify this reinterpretation of the constitution. Is that right? Do you think they are exaggerating maternal mortality?

Dr. Ngare

Yes. They did that. There was a study that was carried out —I think it was carried out in 2003, I think it was repeated in 2012— that they keep quoting. Where they estimate that there was almost 400,000, or something like that, abortions happening in Kenya. They would claim then that abortion is a large, the third largest, that a third of maternal mortality is caused by abortion.

Dr. Morse

Illegal abortions? Illegal unsafe abortions.

Dr. Ngare

Yes, I try very hard not to use the term safe abortion because it is an oxymoron. You can’t call anything safe when the baby dies 100% of the time. There are many women who get psychological and emotional damage. Even if they don’t get physical injury. So it will never be safe. Therefore, in this country, both “safe” and “unsafe” abortion are illegal in this country. So, it doesn’t matter who does it. It doesn’t matter in what place they do it, the fact that they take the life of an innocent pre-born person is inadmissive.

So, they came up with this study, and the statistics, they use a very interesting methodology. It is called “The abortion incidence complication methodology” and I forwarded you a link, and maybe let the viewers do their own reading.

Dr. Morse

Yes, we will definitely link right to that study. And it was a doozy. I mean the truth is they don’t know. So, they are drawing a whole chain of inferences from one or two things they do know.

Dr. Ngare

Yes, they just expand and multiply this multiplication thing they do and come up with all sorts of weird stuff. So, we do not have that number of deaths they claim from abortion. And the abortions —even the abortions they discuss in the study— if you note these they were mainly spontaneous abortions (miscarriages). And then they say, “oh these are the spontaneous abortions then we estimate these must have been the unsafe ones” and they come up with some cooked broth.

Dr. Morse

Just to be clear for people who aren’t MDs —which most of our listeners are not going to be Doctors— The terms “spontaneous abortion” is the technical term for a miscarriage, okay? So, the differences between spontaneous abortion and induced abortion which is what we are normally —when you hear the term abortion, you are thinking of induced, but the medical term spontaneous abortion means that pregnancy ended midterm, spontaneously. No human agency caused that to happen. So that’s what is so, they came up with a guesstimate. They came up with how many were induced and how many were spontaneous. And all of this is based on women coming to the hospital with complications from pregnancy. Isn’t that where all this is from?

Dr. Ngare

Yes

Dr. Morse

So, tell us about that a little bit.

24:58 Dr. Ngare

Many women have come for treatment, seeking treatment because they have lost their pregnancies. Then these organizations go and ask doctors, and then they take the number of women in the country and they estimate how many are in the child rearing age, and they just come up with some wild stuff.

Dr. Morse

Right

Dr. Ngare

Now the way that they have done it in other countries, the estimates are so high, that even the countries that eventually legalize abortion, would never get to that number. And therefore, they are able to justify that.

Dr. Morse

Oohhh. So, they’ve cooked it from the start to say, “look how much safer we are now.”

Dr. Ngare

Yes. So even if you legalize abortion, you never get those kinds of numbers.

Dr. Morse

Right Right.

Dr. Ngare

So, it is a very clever trick from them.

Dr. Morse

Mhmm. So, tell us Dr. Ngare. Who are these people who are so intent on changing the laws in Kenya? Are these Kenyan people? Or are these people from outside? Who is this?

Dr. Ngare

Well, they have a come in an umbrella that they are calling “The Sexual Reproductive Health and Rights Advocates” So they are local NGOs that are sponsored by foreign NGOs. Some of those NGOs you are quite familiar with. Marie Stopes International, Planned Parenthood, then we have some operative in the UN Arms. Especially the UN PA. They organized the first ICPD conference in 1994 in Cairo Egypt. And that is where they introduced all this language of reproductive rights, you know, sexual rights and stuff. And then all the goals of the UN, the SDGs. The Sustainable Development Goals of the UN. They managed to push in that language through that. So what happens is that we get documents being brought by the ministry of health, coming from the UN and the UN Bodies and saying that these are the commitments the world has made, you know. Abortion is part of sexual reproductive health and rights, and these need to be implemented. Then they also come in through policy —they put in money and support the government to review policies. So anytime the government in the ministry of health is reviewing policies, in reproductive health or something. Or they want a policy for adolescent health, they put in a lot of money they offer to give you technical assistance, they pay their technical experts and make sure that all the staff goes on in there.

Now the sexual reproductive health and rights is actually an ideology.

Dr. Morse

Yes

Dr. Ngare

It is an ideology it is a culture. It believes that sex is for pleasure and everyone should be able to experience this right from children at 4 years or 5 years of age. It is being used to sexualize children. It is being used to legalize homosexuality. They want to legalize prostitution, they want children as young as 10 to be put on contraceptives. And a whole lot of stuff that is completely against what Kenyans stand for, even in the constitution. And it is against our African culture, and culture practices. And it is also against the faith of the majority of people who still believe strongly in the tradition of family.

So, they would be basically forcing, imposing cultural practices that are not for us. Now whether they call it progressive or otherwise is their business, but it is basically wrong to come with a culture and practice and impose it on people.

Dr. Morse

So, are there people, a substantial number of people from within Kenya who agree with these people? Or is it a very small minority? Who are they? Who are their local advocates, or the people who are really carrying water for this program locally?

Dr. Ngare

Main ones would just be the NGOs that they sponsor. So, if I went to a non-government-organization that is say Family Options, that is sponsored by ITPF, you’ll find a few individuals whose livelihood is dependent on the employment and resources. But when you go to the Kenyan people —The last time the Kenya Christian Professional forum did a survey, over 90% of the people said they do not want abortion legalized. And almost the same percentage did not want Homosexuality legalized. So, the Kenyans on the ground are very clear what they want.

 

Ngare Interview 30:00

Dr. Morse

Are there a substantial number of people within Kenya who agree with these people? Or is it a very small minority? Who are they? Who are their local advocates? Or the people hwo are really carrying water for this program.

Dr. Ngare

The main ones would just be the NGOs that they sponsor. So it is a non governmental organization that is like, that is sponsored, say, by the IPPF, you’ll find that few Kenyans who are dependent on their employment on these facilities. Well, when you go to the Kenyan people, the last time the Kenyan Christian Forum did a survey, over 90% of the people said they do not want abortion legalized, and almost a similar percentage said they do not want homosexuality legalized. So, they Kenyans on the ground are very clear on what they want. And the people who are pushing this agenda, don’t need to convince the Kenyan people, all they need is one or two corrupt people in certain key ministries, and then, you know, in the local schools agree to take some little money and do the ground work.

Dr. Morse

Yes, and so what you really have is foreign interference in elections.

Dr. Ngare

Actually, the whole concept is foreign interference. We see…let me give you some little contradictions. There is a practice that is called female circumcision that used to be practice in some cultures in this country, where there is a physical cut in the genital area. And the religion and the western world came and told us this practice is not good, it is hurting the women. And basically, that practice is dying and people believe that it is not a good practice. So it is not that we don’t take from the West what is good, but now the same West is telling us, a man can tell me that he is trapped in a woman’s body and come and ask for surgery to transform into a woman. Now whereas the other one is called female genital mutilation, what is the difference, if you are going to cut of the genital organs of a man, and implant breasts in him and inject him with hormones so that he can look like a woman, that is being described as “transgendersim.”

Dr. Morse

Right! But that is genital mutilation! It is genital mutilation!

Dr. Ngare:

It is gross mutilation because we do not have a woman, what you have is a severely mutilated man.

Dr. Morse

And so the ideology of the West is coming in to your country and imposing itself from the top down and it really is foreign interference with elections. And I want to emphasize that point to especially American viewers, because we’ve had so much talk in the United States on whether Russia is interfering with our elections or whether China is interfering with our elections, and here we have really a long standing practice of the international, so called, community, of the international agencies interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the world. And I know this is not unique to Kenya, but I’m happy that we have you to explain this, because I know it went on in the Philippines and it’s going on in Uganda. I visited Uganda not too long ago and I was shocked by the amount of propaganda that I saw everywhere; on the billboards, on the TV, TV commercials, I even saw people wearing T shirts that obviously someone had given them, you know? Just promoting this message that modern birth control is a good thing, and it is safe and, you know, just these buzzwords, that obviously were not invented in Uganda. I mean, you could just tell, it was, it came in from, it was parachuted in to the culture, by the UN agencies and so on and so forth, in exchange for lots and lots of aid money. And so, I think, I would like to go there, if you don’t mind, Dr. I’d like for you to talk a little bit about the way in which aid money is used as bribery to try to change the culture of this sovereign state, let’s say it. Kenya is a sovereign nation and they have a right to rule themselves. How is aid money being used to corrupt your processes, your self-determination processes.

Dr. Ngare,

Well, one of them is basically our elections attract a lot of foreign interest. And especially, at least, in funding. We have seen the same kind of infiltration in our schools. We have seen professors in the medical schools, being part of this reproductive health and rights advocacy system, and they, right from their post-graduate studies, and research work, and all of these are basically sponsored by these same bodies. We’ve also seen the same kind of infiltration of schools of law, where we have a lot of, again, people, lecturers, who have taken on these kind of attitudes. Then you go to the judiciary, and you’ll find that the research department receives large funding from, again, the same NGOs, large fundings with support for technical expertise. Then you come to ministries, like Health, and you find monies given to the Ministry of Health, towards, say, developing policies and the policies allow for giving contraceptives to children, then they will come and provide technical expertise and money to start having adolescent clinics pop up all over the place. We have a body that is called the NCPD – The National Council for Population and Development. Every time they develop policies, you find those sneaked in, and they’re pushing the same language, and then come back with the UN document, saying, “The UN Passed this, and now you need to effect it.” And so its, very deep rooted, and you find that almost every sector of government including the educational sector.

Dr. Morse

We could really call this “Cultural Colonialism” or

Dr. Ngare

Yes, yes, Cultural Colonialism for sure, with a very clear agenda. If we take up abortion, or if we take up contraceptives, especially for the teenagers, if we allow homosexuality to come through, we allow prostitution we legalize, then basically this experiment has worked before in the Netherlands. The Netherlands has reproductive or fertility rate of 0.6 something. They are getting less than one child per married couple. And their fertility rate is not even going to allow them to replace themselves. This has been proven to be very effective in population reduction. And that is the reason why Africa is being pushed to take out those things.

Dr. Morse

Yes, it is very interesting. We’ve done these experiments in the United States also. And here at the Ruth Institute, we track the human misery that is caused by these experiments. So, just to take one of the things that you mentioned. If you allow contraception for unmarried minors, you know, children, teenagers, what you have to back that up with removing the parents from the picture so the children have their own rights to see the doctor without their parents interfering. So you undermine the relationship between the parent and the child. And you know, there are many reasons why parents and children need each other, but you’ve now undermined that whole relationship in a very substantial way. And we’ve seen the way that undermines the family itself and so on and so forth. The other thing that I want to comment on is that what you’re describing is the systematic corruption of the professions in your country. And I want you and your colleagues to be aware that in the United States, pretty much every profession has been corrupted by the Sexual Revolution, all the way down to the school teachers and the librarians and the social workers. Everybody’s on board to push this agenda, you know? And it is, you are very, very wise to resist it. And I just want you to know that there are plenty of Americans that agree with you guys, you know? That’s part of why I wanted you on the show so you could know that we are not all on board with the crazy stuff that our government is so repsonbile for in so many ways. And then when you talk about the ministries of health and the different, the education ministries, and the way in which that’s all separated from electoral politics. You can’t vote those guys out. Once the Ministry of Health puts something in place, that’s going to outlast any administration. And in the United States, we have now come to call that the “Deep State”, the “Administrative State” – it is immune to any kind of public oversight. And so, again, you guys are very wise, to be putting the brakes on all of that, because it is not going to do you any good. And I will say, as an American, I apologize for what our country has done to your country in this area. It is not right.

Dr. Ngare

Well, I think when you look at humanity, as just humanity without the borders and colors, I think we all have a moral responsibility, because none of this would happen if everybody stood up for what was right. And you find the Ministry of Health, they’ll probably be dealing with two or three people out of very many employees. But for those two people to be able to do what they’re doing, they have very many people who are quiet. They call themselves good people, but they will not speak out, they will not condemn these things happening. I think all of us must take it very seriously, that this is not a fight of one or two people. It is a fight for the survival of the human race. And if you don’t see it that way, then there is a risk of laxity, which is the only thing they need for them to continue to progress.

Dr. Morse

So, That’s a great place for us to turn the conversation back to your organization, the Kenyan Catholic Doctor’s Association. And I think you’re also involved in another professional organization, isn’t that right? The Christian, I forget what its called.

Dr. Ngare

It’s called the Kenya Christian Professionals Forum

Dr. Morse

That’s it. That’s what I’m thinking of. So, tell us a little bit about how your organization and perhaps the Catholic Church, has tried to resist some of these things.

Dr. Ngare

The Kenyan Catholic Doctor’s Association keeps its eyes and ears open for any stuff that is likely to interfere with life or to interfere with family, and especially in the field of medicine. One of the biggest fights we had with the government, is in 2014, when the World Health Organization was running a program for eradication of neonatal tetanus, and in this country, they came and asked that all women in child bearing age, from the age of 14 to the age of 49, should be given two injections of the tetanus vaccine. That caused a bit of a concern. Number one, we were already immunizing all pregnant women with two injections of tetanus given during the pregnancy. Now, they come and tell us that even the ones who are not pregnant from the age of 14, all the way to 49, whether you’re pregnant or not. The second was that the injections were to be given every six months. And they were to be given four or give doses. Now the problem was, as the Kenyan Catholic Doctors Association, we were aware that such vaccines had been given in South American in 1992. And there was concern that there were fertility regulating tetanus vaccines.

Dr. Morse

So hold on right there. Just so people understand what you’re saying. Neonatal Tetanus is a disease that sometimes babies have in unsanitary conditions, they might have tetanus, and if they get tetanus it is deadly. It is bad. So you guys had a program in place for immunizing the pregnant mothers to deal with that problem. And then along comes somebody with a new plan with a vaccine that you are suspicious of, that it may have a sterilization or fertility reducing additive included along with the tetanus vaccine. Is that…am I getting that right?

Dr. Ngare

Yes. And we managed to get a few of those vials and test them for the human chorionic gonadotropin, and we found some to be positive.

Dr. Morse

So it was a substance that would prevent the baby from implanting in the womb properly. Is that what it amounted to?

Dr. Ngare

Yes. What happens is immediately the baby implants, the forming placenta tissue produces hCG that tells the ovary to produce progesterone, which is the pregnancy hormone. Now if you make sure that the antibodies destroy all the hCG, the babies produce, then what happens is that the signal to the mother that she is pregnant is interfered with. The minute that she doesn’t make the progesterone then she loses her pregnancy. And the antibodies are high enough, even her cycle doesn’t change. She continues to get normal periods; she doesn’t even know there is a baby implanted in her.

Dr. Morse

So what you all were concerned about in 2014, was this basically anti-fertility drug was being snuck in to the tetanus vaccination, and non-pregnant women, and this is why it is significant that they’re doing it to everybody, that they’re doing it without their knowledge, are going to be essentially sterilized.

Dr. Ngare

Yes, the thing is that when we tested and found it was the one we were able to confirm, this information was taken to the Catholic Bishops, who had allowed us to do this study. We gave them the reports, and the Ministry of Health declined to get involved, until much later. But you see the idea here is, if somebody can sponsor a program like that, where women can be vaccinated that will limit their fertility without knowledge and even believing what was done is good for them, the only thing that we can say about such is that it is evil. There is exactly no other way to describe it. This is not medicine, it is witchcraft.

Dr. Morse

Right, right, and so in that instance in 2014, did, were you guys able to stop the program? It seems to me that I remember reading about this program. Didn’t the Bishops tell people “Don’t take this vaccine?”

Dr. Ngare

Yes. The bishops advised people not to take the vaccine. The Kenya Catholic Doctor’s Association advised people to not take the vaccine. And that brought in a lot of issues. In fact, Dr. Karange and I were summoned to the medical board, which is the board that treaties the doctors, telling us that they would take disciplinary action against us. And once we presented the same evidence and they could see what we were talking about. So, what eventually happened is that they chose to stop the vaccination campaigns. And I think in 2017 they declared that the country was now free of neonatal tetanus.

Dr. Morse

What? Wait a minute! So they came in with this big campaign, and you guys caught them, and they took their campaign away, and then all of a sudden, there is no more neonatal tetanus?

Dr. Ngare

Nope. All of a sudden, now the country is cured of neonatal tetanus and we don’t need the extra vaccinations anymore and we are back to the practice that we had before.

Dr. Morse

Well, so first of all, Good for you guys that you stood up to them! And you got them to back down. You know, I mean, good for you, that ou did it. If you guys hadn’t been there, demanding to test those vials, and if you hadn’t had the Bishops backing you up, they probably would have been going on to this day, huh?

Dr. Ngare

Yes, and that is why it is important for everybody to engage. It can’t be the fight for just a few people. The more people stand up against this kind of imperialism, the better for everybody in the world. It is not just in Kenya, the globalists everywhere, they have their agenda, it is very clear in their mind. People need to stand out and just do what is right, otherwise, we’ll have no humanity left.

Dr. Morse

Well, I appreciate what you guys did. Now let me ask you guys about another question, and you might not want to answer this, so if you don’t want to answer this on the air or you want to take it out, we can do that. So, let me just ask you. In Kenya, what is going on with the Coronavirus and the mitigation of it?

Dr. Ngare

Well, the Coronavirus is a very normal virus. Whether it is created or natural is another story. But the idea is that we are having cases of coronavirus infection and measures have been put in place like everybody else: wash your hands, wear masks. There was initially a lockdown that was put in place. In medicine we generally give hope. Assume my patient has a cancer and it is and all signs point to it as the fact that only 10% of the people survive beyond five years, it means that the risk of death is 90%. As a doctor, I have two ways I could break the ways to my client. I could tell my client that the chance that she will survive is 10% and we are going to do everything in our power to try and make sure you are going to survive this kind of cancer. Or I could go ahead and tell her that all the chances of death are 90% and there is no hope here and just prepare for death. Now the statistics remain exactly the same, but one keeps hope and gives a person energy to fight back. The other one destroys hope literally. It is therefore incredible that once a week, we have to have the government announcing how many new cases of coronavirus have been reported and how many people have died, how many are in the ICU, and this is repeated every week like clockwork, in fact it is daily. It is daily, I think 3:00 in the afternoon is the report of how many people have died. Now if you look at number of people who have died from COVID-19 and assuming those numbers are correct, there is still fewer than the number of road accidents in this country. They are fewer than the number that die of HIV in this country. They are fewer than the number of people that die of malaria in this country. So, there is fear that is being generated in people. There is, you know, people are being made to fear to a point where if the Minister of Transport every day woke up and told us how many people die of road accidents, no body would drive a car. So you can see there is an agenda of inducing fear and there is the acceleration of things being produced all over the place, and the question then it begs is, what are we being prepared for? It just looks like, feels like, we are all being prepared for vaccination. Nothing will go back to normal until we go back to vaccination. You can see an agenda being laid there. The last thing about coronavirus is there is now enough information for us to be able to reduce the death rates we know vitamin D deficiency is a major problem. We know the onset of anti-coagulant prevention is very important. We know that the secretions in the lungs are an issue. So there are many interventions using drugs that are already available, that can actually help us reduce the death rates if only we are allowed to use the first principles of medicine and the understanding of medicine to make interventions work. That, I find, is lacking. The medical interventions that people have described that we can try and save life.

Dr. Morse

And it is almost, we have come full circle, to where we began with the Hippocratic oath of first do no harm and how to preserve the life of the patient. And this is an oath. It is a sacred calling. And in a way, you guys are more Western than we are. You have embraced the good part of the Western tradition and are taking it more to heart than some of us are.

Dr. Ngare

I think it is good to be open to what is good. But I think it is wrong to put it all in one jacket and say one size fits all. And if you don’t do what we do on this side, you aren’t good or you won’t get aid. There is mischief in that.

Dr. Morse

Well, I think this is a good place to stop. Dr. Wahome is there any place people can reach you? If our followers are interested in what you’re doing, is there a website where they can learn more about the activities where they can learn more about the activities of the Kenyan Catholic Doctors Association?

Dr. Ngare

Yes, we have a website, but is not very active and I’m sure it could look much better than it does.

Dr. Morse

Oh, well, let’s, I’ll make you a promise, if you keep me informed of what you’re doing, I’ll make sure people know what you’re doing, because I know a lot of people are going to be blessed by this conversation. Dr. Wahome Nagare, thank you so much for being my guest on the Dr. J. show.

Dr. Ngare

Thank you very much for having me, and have a good day.

Dr. Morse

Thank you.




Landmark Legal Decision! Therapists Can Help Same-Sex Attracted Youth!

Is it legal to restrict licensed individuals from pursuing their client's therapy goals?

Mat Staver is Founder of Liberty Counsel, which defends religious freedom in cases across the nation. He is also Chairman of the National Pro-life Center, Freedom Federation, Salt & Light Council, and the National House of Hope. He serves as Vice President of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, and was Vice President of Liberty University, as well as a former Dean and law professor.

This episode is also available as an audio podcast. More resources and readings after the cut.


Mat has over 300 published legal opinions. He authored eight scholarly law review publications, and many books and publications. He is a frequent guest on many international and national television and radio programs and has been interviewed for thousands of media sources.

Mat has filed numerous briefs and argued in many federal and state courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He has argued two landmark cases before SCOTUS: Madsen v. Women's Health Center, and, McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky.

Prior to law school, Mat pastored several churches.

In Otto v. City of Boca Raton, therapist Robert Otto sued the city for the right to talk with clients about their feelings of sexual attraction, the impact of those feelings, and strategies for improving the quality of their lives. The City of Boca Raton had passed an ordinance criminalizing “conversion therapy,” or “reparative therapy,” or, Sexual Orientation Change Efforts.

It is simply not true that sexual orientation is an immutable trait. There is no "gay gene." But if the Sexual Revolutionaries can convince people that gay is like being black, then they can apply anti-discrimination law to sexual behavior.

The scientific fact is that there are numerous ways into an LGBT lifestyle, and there are numerous ways out. The Dr J Show has featured many people who left the "gay" lifestyle, happily.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit agreed with Mat Staver that this particular form of speech must not be banned.

Topics discussed in this episode include:

  • California's "Reproductive FACT Act" made it criminal for counselors to help clients with unwanted same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria.
  • Anti-reparative therapy bans are LGBTQIA+ propaganda to keep hurting people imprisoned in their conflict.
  • Anti-reparative therapy laws are viewpoint-based, where the State determines which views are allowed and which views are criminal.
  • There is no evidence that reparative therapy harms clients.
  • In many cases, the State has admitted they need more research, which only proves they have no evidence to criminalize therapy.
  • the significance of Trump-appointed, originalist/constitutionalist judges
  • conflict of interest among judges in the liberal courts
  • 99.1% of Californians are not allowed corporate worship -- under threat of huge fines and jail time.
  • The State of California has decreed that 99.1% of Christians cannot:
    • worship corporately
    • have a home Bible Study with a pastor
    • have a deacon come pray for them
  • ALL these cases denying religious freedom have in common pro-abortion, pro-sodomy Democrat politicians and judges.
  • There's no evidence that minors are helped longterm by transgender treatments.
  • Many people --including politicians and even judges-- believe the lie that reparative counseling involves torture.
  • Just as the Sexual State doesn't want women in unplanned pregnancies to know they have options, so the Sexual State doesn't want those suffering from unwanted same-sex attractions to know that they have hope of normalcy.
  • Thousands of former "gays" HAVE changed, very happily.
  • The liberal courts created a category limiting free speech for pro-life centers & Christian counselors, and called it "professional speech."
  • The U.S. Supreme Court rejected California's argument that linked reparative therapy ban-reasoning with forcing pro-life centers to advertise abortion because licensed therapists & centers do not have free speech.

Readings & Resources


Your Spouse Leaves You and The State Takes Possession of Your Kids. What Next?

Since 2004, Bai Macfarlane has been upholding the dignity of marriage in light of no-fault divorce. Under no-fault divorce, the party that still loves his or her spouse and wants to keep the family together is virtually defenseless. Mary’s Advocates is a voice for faithful spouses, and provides resources to equip those in positions of authority and influence to encourage reconciliation and denounce marital abandonment and unjust separations.

This episode is also available as an audio podcast. More resources & readings after the cut.


Bai spoke in Rome for Human Life International Rome about the marriage crisis and the Code of Canon Law. Her paper was distributed to the delegates at the Synod of Bishops. Mary’s Advocates work has been publicized by Homiletic and Pastoral Review, National Catholic Register, the United Stated Conference of Catholic Bishops, and LifeSite News. She’s been a radio guest on Relevant Radio, Ave Maria Radio, and EWTN.

 

Readings & Resources

 

Before marriage, Bai earned earned a bachelor of science from the University of Notre Dame. She was a stay-at-home mom raising four children under the age of 12 just prior to beginning her marriage work.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Hi, everyone. I am Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute. Welcome to this edition of the Dr. J show. My guest today is Mrs. Bai MacFarlane, who is the founder and president of Mary's advocates, and I am going to let her tell you all about Mary's advocates and what they do. Bai welcome to the Dr. J show.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Jennifer, Thanks for having me.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Tell people a little bit about yourself, and how you got involved in advocating for divorce reform of various sorts.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Ok sure. I was always a Christian, I am Catholic, raising a Catholic family and my husband and I got married after college, and I was living the good life. And then about 12 years into our marriage, my husband, for reasons that are not even worth talking about decided that he needed to have our family go through divorce. So, I had a quick education about what no-fault divorce was. And I was ignorant. I did not know anyone close to me who had gone through this. So, having been a defendant in no-fault divorce, I had an eye-opening education. And you have talked about no-fault divorce. You have written about it in your book, The Sexual State

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. The Sexual State, there is a big chapter in there on divorce.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

So, it was obvious that something unjust was happening because the person who didn't do anything grave that would justify a separation of spouses, as if I had lost my mind, or if there was a husband who's committing adultery, The other spouse has a legitimate reason to be separated, because a person's breaking their marriage promises in a big way. It does not matter if one party goes to the state and says, I want a divorce. Essentially, what they are doing is saying to the state, take over my children, take over my property, you decide. If my spouse and I don't decide on how we want to split everything. I give the court the power display everything. So, anyone who has been a defendant or close to someone who's a defendant knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes, that is right.And let's stop right there to say that the Ruth Institute does have a lot of resources about this very topic, because there are a lot of people who have been through this, and most of them are kind of socially invisible. So, it is very important that you are coming forward and talking about this a little bit more. Yeah, go ahead Bai.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

And the perspective that I take is someone who believes in marriage. And we understand that when two people marry, they are married, you cannot unmarry somebody, just like you can't unmake somebody, your actual biological son. I mean, it's just a fact of nature. It is true. So, in the —there is a lot of pressure for people who are defendants in divorce to accept that your marriage is over. Why would you want to stay married to somebody that does not want to be married to you anymore? Your spouse doesn't love you anymore. You need to move on. Even nice things. You are good looking, you are nice. I'm sure you can find someone who will appreciate you. You need to do all these things. So, there's tons of pressure to say that one's marriage is not in existence anymore, and your marriage is over just because of a civil divorce. So what Mary's advocates does is we support those who are unjustly abandoned, who recognize that they're still married. And it’s like what?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right. You are married. You are definitely a countercultural radical. Okay, let's give it to you Bai. You are a countercultural radical for sure. This is what radical looks like in 2020 people.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Some of my friends are dead saints that I have on my wall, so it's like St. John Fisher was a countercultural radical

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yeah, that's right. So, you know, I want to back up just a little bit, because we're gonna talk about Mary’s advocates. That's what we're here to talk about in a way. You used a word and I want to kind of come back to that. There's kind of a natural level at which all of this happens. There's a natural law basis. For this, that should be the basis of civil law and church law. That there's a natural reality here that a man or a woman have come together, they have made promises solemn promises, and they have created children together. And you can't unmake yourself a mom, you can't unmake yourself a husband. So, draw out for us the natural law basis of all of this, because I think this is a new thought, for people, people are used to thinking you can end a marriage, and they haven't really thought through necessarily, what exactly you're saying when you say that.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Okay, well let's look at what is the purpose? Or what's needed in making a child capable of participating in society in a functional way.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

I guess I could just start with that. Well, they need to know how to talk, they probably need to have some manners, they need to know how to share, they need to know how to communicate, they need to know how to work, I mean, all these kinds of things that you would want your children to know how to do. And by nature, long before there were governments, the way that cultures were doing this, is that a Mom and a Dad who have extreme interest in their own children —You know, people would sacrifice their own lives for their children. It's innate, so that's what I mean by nature. Yes, it can be done outside of that, yes, someone can grow up with only one parent because one of the parents died, or one of the parents abandoned. Yes, you can do that. But is that by nature, the way that it was designed, the way that works best? I'm sure you can look at study after study after study that show the results. It’s sad to say, it's like self-confidence, performance in the work world, ability to trust, all these things that children of divorce are kind of suffering.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.And so, if you look at it, just from the natural perspective, it takes a man and a woman to make a child, and that parental relationship is lifelong. And the cooperation between the parents is an essential aspect of the child's ability to thrive. So, if mom and dad hate each other, that means the two halves of who I am, are at war with each other. A five-year-old can't figure that out, and you probably have had people say this, if you're going through divorce, you should sit them down and tell them, “mommy and daddy don't love each other anymore. We still love you, honey, but we don't love each other anymore.” Well, that's half of who you are. And then the little kid is like how does this even work? And of course, it doesn't even work. So, the natural order of things for mom and dad to cooperate for a lifetime for the benefit of each other and for the benefit of the children. And that cooperation system we call marriage, and to abandon a promise of that solemnity, without a just reason, is unjust, it's unjust to abandon that promise. And if civil law doesn't take account of that you got a big problem. There's something really wrong. So that's what I want to get out on the table that is for people to really think this through because we're so cavalier in this culture,

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Or people are people are used to trusting. Well If something happens in a civil court, well, Justice occurs, that's what courts are for. Courts are for administering justice.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

So, there's talk about how the courts decide. Well, that would be great if we lived in an era where the government system supported marriage and family, but now we have the absolute opposite. I remember going through, in our divorce situation, I was a person who wasn't able to sign saying I agree to split my children and property because that is a lie. I don't agree to any of this. I think we should have an intact home and you should get the right kind of professional help and whatever our issues were, we're not even that different than issues I read about being common in lots of marriages. It's like, let's get humble and get down to hearing it out, and it would have been fine. But when moms and dads don't agree, the court will decide what happens to children. And sometimes the court will assign other paid government entities to decide what happens. So, they can appoint a Guardian Ad Litem who's a children's lawyer, or they can appoint a court psychologist. And then these two have a vested interest in getting more clients. And the way to get clients is when someone files for divorce. So, you've got these hangers on who earn good incomes, by taking assets from parents who are in divorce court. So, if you're the defendant, there's a lot of pressure to just sign on that dotted line that you agree to be divorced. And I remember a meeting with our guardian Ad Litem, and he was talking about how divorce is just like going through a tornado. And people recover and you rebuild your house. No, it's not. I mean it's my family, divorce and even the separated faithful, Divorce is the gift that keeps on giving.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

But let's go back to that tornado analogy because I just lived through a hurricane. And yeah, everything gets destroyed and you rebuild. But the difference between a hurricane and a divorce is that there's no moral agency here. Nobody's singled me out and blasted me with a hurricane. When your marriage is destroyed by your spouse, and by agents of the state. There is human moral agency at work there. And you look there, and you go, there's culpability here. This didn't have to happen. Somebody decided to make this happen. Down here in Lake Charles we're dealing with act of God. Okay, God, we got a hurricane. Thank you very much. I don't know what you're trying to say, but we accept it. That's not the same case with some —with the judge and the guardian Ad Litem, and the financial planners, and the court appointed psychologists and the people who supervise your visits. Sometimes that comes into play, where somebody makes an allegation and there's some kind of problems. So, there's some non-family members supervising the visits so there are many agents of the state that get involved in managing divorces. Now, Bai you made it clear from the outset that you didn't want the divorce. Did you ever sign the paper that they were asking you to?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

No, I didn't. And what happened in our case is —for reasons that would take too long to explain— a constitutional law professor got involved like nine months into it. And he was challenging that no-fault divorces is unconstitutional, based on the principle that people who marry in accordance with a religious right, or a religious doctrine or dogma, that both people going into a marriage and they contract a marriage according to certain rules, the state can't come in years after the fact and usurp the rules and the obligations, which the parties agreed that are in line with their church. Does that make sense?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes, yes. So, he was making a First Amendment type of an argument.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

That and contract. Due process and religious liberties kind of argument. And we ended up losing on a technicality having to do with timing, because we were designating the church as a third-party arbitrator. So, it didn't bear any fruit in my case. But one of the resources that Mary's advocates has, is that we wish people would do but I haven't figured out how to market it in a way that people jump on board. What are they agreeing? Are their obligations? Because everyone who marries right now in a pure no-fault divorce state, you're agreeing that the government can you have control of your property and children, when one of you, for no reason, decides I want out.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. What no-fault divorce really means is that the government will always take sides with the person who wants the marriage the least. That's what it actually means. And so, this resource that you have, is it a document for people to sign going into it? Tell us about this document that you have in mind

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

We call it our true marriage proclamation set. Or covenant agreement and it's language that's available, anyone could go on the website and find it today. They could download a PDF, it’s something that could be signed just prior to marriage. The goal would be that it would have the weight of a prenuptial agreement legally, because there's certain things you have to do to have a prenuptial agreement be legal. You have to have an option for a lawyer to review it with you, and the lawyer could sign saying I explained this to you, I explained this to the other side. Or they could sign it after marriage, and it could have the weight of a post-nuptial agreement. That's the goal. And the big thing that happens is it designates a third-party arbitrator. You know you buy a $30 software item, and they have you read that long contract before you say yes, I agree to buy this $30 item. There's lots of times where you're agreeing that if I'm dissatisfied, I won't go to a civil court and sue the seller. I will go to a third-party arbitrator and there are entities that exist, where churches, for example, non-Catholic churches, could designate that we want all of our contracts with our employees to have this clause in here about if there's a conflict, we're going to go with third party arbitrator. And there's a Christian arbitration association that exists right now, that is recognized in the civil forum for handling different kinds of disputes between a pastor and an employee. And for Catholics, one could sign the way our agreement is written, is that there is a designating the Roman Catholic Church and the Catholic code of canon law, and those authorized to implement the Catholic code of canon law.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

So, in other words, you would make it explicit ahead of time, that you do not wish to use the civil authorities. That you both agree to be subject to this form of arbitration, in your case, that Canon Law, but it could be a Christian arbitration service. But to make it explicit, so that people have thought that thing through.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Over the years what I have found my focus to be. It is to support the people who already understand, and they already get what we're talking about. Because we need to get more of those people feeling comfortable and confident and assured that what you're saying makes good sense. It's actually from a Roman Catholic perspective, it's supported by long standing church teaching, and we just need to hold our ground. Amongst the people that you know, I mean, I'm an unusual circumstance. And maybe it's my personality —it is my personality. It’s my ability to hold my ground, regardless of what somebody says. I just can't not hold my ground. So, my work is to try to figure out as much as I can discern, to get some good done on this, but some people in the no-fault divorce situation are sort of drowning. You're barely keeping where you live, your house is lost, your kids are all over the place. They're going back and forth, trying to raise and discipline and teach a child who goes back and forth. It's just not fair.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. It's not fair to the kid.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Enforcement mechanism, you teach them something here, they get something different over there. You try to have some kind of consequence for behavior and just normal stuff, like, how many hours a day, are you going to be allowed to be on your cell phone?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right, that's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

At mom’s house she says this, but at dad’s house —So these kinds of things.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

And these are problems which couples in a functioning marriage solve and confront every single day. Mom and Dad may have different opinions about different things, but they'll look at each other and they'll solve it. They don't bring agents of the state in, or kick each other under the table. “We'll talk about this later,” whatever little conflict we have as parents in an ongoing marriage you don’t bring in the guys with guns. I mean, because let's face it, the state has guns and they put people in jail, and they seize property, and they do all that kind of mean stuff. And once you go into divorce court, you are involving the guys with guns. That's just fact.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Yeah, and a sad pattern that I see a lot, because people talk to me, who are the separated faithful, who don't want the divorce, who want to keep the marriage together. They're humbly admitting that I never said I was a perfect spouse. I said, “I want to work on it. And I can let me know, what is it that I'm doing that's causing issues. If I'm at fault about whatever it is, —and we're not talking about reasons for separation, we're talking about just things that are annoying, or whatever else. Fine, I'm willing to grow in virtue.” But the person on the other side refuses to cooperate with people who are expert helping couples, I just see that as a telltale pattern and to me. That concludes that someone is not genuine.

Or they say, I tried counseling and it didn't work. Well, the reason it didn't work is because you refuse to cooperate and then there's nothing that defendant can do about it. So, it sounds kind of hopeless, but the hope is, as Christians, I mean, as a Catholic, what are we to do when we're faced in a situation where we're experiencing injustice?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

So far, we've been talking about all this on the civil side of things. And the Ruth Institute has talked about this a lot on the civil side. We've had other abandoned spouses speak at our conference and things. We've had Dr. Stephen Baskerville speak at our things, who is in my mind a great theorist on this subject. Really unmasking the injustice of the state. And then we've had Layla Miller speak who's written a compilation of First-Person accounts from adult children of divorce and the impact that their parents’ divorce had on them. But what you bring to the table Bai, that is unique, and I think will be helpful to a lot of people is canon law.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

The most exciting thing that I've uncovered that I publicized with Mary's advocates, is the church's law on separation of spouses. In Scripture, when it says, if your brother sins against you, you bring your concern to him directly. And if you don't get anywhere you bring some friends witnesses, and if you don't get anywhere you bring it to the church? That principle is written into our canon law about marriage. And I've gone back to the Council of Trent in 1563, where it's talking about how, for Catholics, keeping a family together is of public interest. It's not a private little thing between you and the person you're buying your car from. And it's not a private little thing where one little spouse is supposed to decide all on her own, to give her family to the state. We have protections written into our canon law about separation of spouses, where they're supposed to be a Canon Law investigation prior to anyone going to the civil forum. And this is a thing that I uncovered.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

So Bai, I have looked at some of your debates on this subject, and so on and so forth. And this is a really complicated area and a very controversial area. And I want to say I appreciate the research and diligence that you've done on it. But I can't say to my viewers that this is a settled issue, because obviously, it's not, you know, led to a lot of controversy about, but there's some things you're doing that relate to annulment. And some things you have thought about, that are not controversial, I think. And one of the important things that I've seen you do is that you assist people who are going through the annulment process, who don't want their marriage to be annulled. In other words, people who think this is a valid marriage. No! Just like you wouldn't sign the paper in the civil court, there are people who don't want to go along with it in the in the ecclesial courts as well. So, tell somebody a little bit about how that might work. Because we may have people watching. There are all kinds of situations with that, so tell people a little bit about how you and your materials assist people.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Okay. There are some tribunals that grantannulments to 100% of the petitioners. And I would surmise to say that they don't have any canon lawyers on staff who have experience with the kind of person you're describing, who wants to uphold the validity of their marriage, because they've never seen them. They've never seen it happen that a marriage was upheld, because their diocese, they give them to virtually everyone. So, some of the simple procedural things that I can help people with. Like, when a party alleges that a marriage is invalid, they're supposed to submit a petition. They're supposed to submit a petition, they're supposed to say certain things like explain, “Hey! I think my marriage is invalid for this ground and here's some facts and proofs in a general way describing why.” Like if I was to accuse you of anything, or accuse something, let's say, you want the drunken contract example, if you were going to say that our contract about selling the car was void, because I tricked you and you were drunk, and you got witnesses? Well, you would decide that on your petition as to why you think this contract is void. That's what's supposed to happen in canon law petition. And the petition is supposed to be sent to the other party. The other party needs to see what's the basis for the complaint. And I've had people that I've worked with where in their diocese, the standardize form that's used and accepted for the petitions says, No grounds for the petitioner, No grounds for the respondent. And that's what they give to the other side.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

What? I don’t understand. On the printed form it asserts that there are no grounds given.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

It might have been typed. It's typed in. I've seen in two cases in a diocese, where the petition that was sent to the respondent says, “I so and so applying for a decree of invalidity of my marriage.” And then further down in the paper, it says I assert the marriage is invalid. Checkbox. No grounds on the petitioner. Actually, there wasn't a checkbox, It was just typed language, no grounds on the petitioner, no grounds on the respondent. And when I'm saying petitioner respondent, the petitioners is the one that wanted a petition so, a common ground that's used in the United States is grave lack of discretion of judgment that has to do with psychological issues. So, someone might say I allege that I myself have this grave lack of discretion of judgment, but the respondent should see that so, That's an example.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right? So, you've seen these petitions where no grounds are given, what do you tell the person to do? What does the respondent do?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Everything I do is I suggest “you might want to…”. This is your letter; this is not my letter. I suggest that they respond back and just cite in the canon law that says: No petition is supposed to be accepted, unless it shows the grounds, and it shows the facts and proofs and a general way upon which the petitioner is relying to support the grounds. Or another thing I've seen is they're not supposed to collect proofs, witness testimony, until after they set in stone, what grounds are going to be investigating? Both sides need to know what's at stake here. What are you accusing? Are we saying that someone lied about wanting kids? Or are we saying that someone was psychologically so impaired that they couldn't consent because they didn't know what they were doing? You need to know that before you go in, and then you need to know which party.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

It kind of goes play by play through the procedures. And if the procedures are really irregular, then I help people submit appeals. So, I can't say we've had a lot of success. But what I hear from the people who contact me is they're just relieved that there's somebody who appreciates the law, respects their rights. You can't win everything. We don't know what's going to happen. But these people are saying, I have to try!

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. That's right. That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

There's nobody that can help me because, I'm reading on your website about a petition is supposed to say facts and proofs in a general way. But when I talk to my tribunal personnel, and they just say we're waiting for you to answer our questionnaire over and over again.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

I want to say for the record, I do know of one case where a person succeeded in defending her marriage, using some materials that you had provided for her. Personally, I know of a case where this woman, they had four children together. And her husband left her and petitioned for an annulment and she fought it and she won. It was denied, and he had already tottled off with this new Sweetie, so it was kind of a mess for him. But she was greatly relieved, and her children were so relieved. Yeah! Mom and Dad, you are married, this is a real marriage. And that's important to children. So, in a sense, what I Intuit about this, Again, I'm not a Canon lawyer, either. And I haven't spent any time in tribunals. But the vibe that I'm getting, if you want to put it that way, for the people I talk to is, is that the spirit of the age has infiltrated the church in this area, as in other areas, so you'll have the priests saying you should move on. Or why don't you do this? Or it'll be okay. That kind of thing. The idea that somebody would defend their marriage, would stand for their marriage —Not so long ago, that was understood to be what one ought to do. And now, it's not. That common understanding is gone.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

And when you're talking about how there are priests that will say you need to move on. The priests only know what they're taught. You only know what you've read. So, I've got shelves of stuff behind me. And if people contact me, and they're trying to understand...Is my marriage invalid or not? I really think it's valid. I tell them to read these books.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right. You’ve done the legwork for them, right?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

This one has 58 pages on psychological grounds for annulment, go look at this, because I have other books on my shelf, it's just a paperback book put together by some publisher that says it's Catholic that has one paragraph written about grounds for an annulment on psychological grounds, and they say, you were too immature to get married. So, people are repeating things that are contrary to what the scholarly stuff says. All you know, is the little tidbits that you've heard, you might think, Oh!my marriage is invalid because I had this or that problem. I was like No! Do your homework.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

People who care.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. And in defense of the tribunals, they have a lot of cases to deal with. And like you say, they're going with what they know, with what's familiar to them in a lot of cases. And they're looking into a lot of stuff and they're overworked. And they're looking at the evidence. I mean, a competent trial tribunal will be looking at the evidence and seeing the paperwork and seeing what happened and so on and so forth. So, a lot goes into it, and I don't want to just slam anybody here. But the fact is, the ethos has changed, No one would deny that.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

the piece that's so sad about annulments being granted too much is that, for two parties who are Catholic who are willing to follow the church's teaching, the church teaching could result in healing marriage.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

You know, if you've got somebody that kind of freaked out when they filed for divorce, and then they got all this support of this is what you need to do from the system. They're told, well, now that you've got your divorce, the right solution is to apply for your annulment. So, whenever they apply for their annulment and the annulment is granted, you've just missed the whole thing of what caused the marriage to break up really? And let's address it.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right. So much of the culture ignores that very important point. I've had family law attorneys say to me,particularly when a woman comes in and says, “I'm going to divorce my husband,” she has been thinking about it a long time, she's got her exit strategy planned. And he's completely blindsided because he had no idea how upset she was, or whatever. But she's doing all this. And I have had the lawyers Tell me, when they get to that point, there is no talking to them, and they get really mean and really vindictive. And then it's really bad. It can go really bad. Now, one point of clarification I want to mention because we do have some non-Catholic followers, followers who say that there's no role for church law or for annulment. That the church doesn't have the right to say anything about this. They're not used to the idea of church law, or of having to investigate. The point is you need to have institutions to enforce the gospel if you want to say that.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

The gospel doesn't implement itself, the Bible doesn't implement itself, you have to have structures to determine the facts. Well, is this really your twin brother? Or did you really mistakenly marry your cousin? Or did he really lie that he was impotent? You found out after the fact that he was impotent? Did that really happen? You have to have some structures for dealing with that.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Because it's even scriptural that you go to the church about certain kinds of conflicts.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. So now I want to talk about this term “Standers”. I want to talk about the standers. I've encountered non-Catholics and Catholics who use this term, or without the term or doing the concept of standing. So, tell people what this term standers means. And a little bit about where you've encountered them.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Stander is someone who's separated or divorced, who still stands for their marriage. And even standing is a really good word, because it's not aggressive, it's not offensive, it's not pushing, it's just standing, it's just standing. And it's standing for a truth that I'm still married. And I've encountered that, I was one from the very beginning, even in the civil form. I didn't know that it had a name, but it's just this isn't true. I don't agree to this. I believe I'm married. Marriage is for life. I didn't get married in the state, the state cannot unmarry me. Some of the things I see common in standers is we still wear our wedding rings. Because out in the public, we're not single again. We're not like a widow, whose marriage is truly ended because my husbands dead. No. And in in how we talk, we would talk about, my husband or my wife, or you know, the whole thing of my ex-spouse, we would never say ex-spouse. There is no such thing as an ex-spouse anymore more than there is an ex-son.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. That's exactly right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

There's also a supernatural hope for reconciliation. And I modify that with supernatural because on a human level, the chances look like 0.00000 and infinity. The other spouse is already supposedly married to a different person. We wouldn't even call a second marriage, a marriage.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

There's one lady, her husband married someone else. And she's like, “Well, that's just a civil forum approving adultery.”

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

That's right. Not it's not marriage. You know, people might give you pushback.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yeah, they might. They give you plenty of pushback, right?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

In the civil forum, because we had a full-blown trial, where a lot of people don’t, they just go to the judge and say here is our paperwork. And the Guardian Ad Litem was questioning me. And I remember this. And he's like, “Well, why did you contact this person?” “I was looking for help.” “Why did you write this person?” “I was looking for help.” “Why did you reach?” I mean, I just was looking for help everywhere, thinking maybe somebody could help keep our family together. But the plaintiff in the divorce court gets what they want every time.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

There's a woman Charlene steinkamp, I think, Charlene cares. And she's from a biblical perspective. And people can go to her website. She sends a daily motivational message based in Scripture of how one stands for your marriage and the other spouse is a prodigal, like the prodigal son, and the dads waiting. and the dad knows that son might come home, he's hoping his son comes home. And it's that kind of thing or with Mary's advocates Coming at it from a Catholic perspective, there was a book published in Italian that we got translated into English.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Oh, tell us about that book, I have a copy of it too.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

It talks about the modes, that one passes in and out of and stays in, when one is separated faithful. And what we do is we have a monthly conference phone call, where we just go through a little section of the book each time, and over the years, people have become friends with each other, some of them have met separately. In my diocese, there's a group of us that meet in person, and we just use the book as a springboard for conversation. Because it's people who don't live it, they don't get it. And I think they frankly, kind of get tired of it. I mean, if you had a spouse who’s schizophrenic, it would really be helpful for you to have people who also have a spouse who's schizophrenic, that you can support each other in that walk.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

You remember what you used to have. So, the absence of what you used to have, it's just a laser focus on what you don't have now. And the thing that we support each other in, is what does one do with these emotions, because it's hard? So, we encourage each other in trusting in God and leaning on the cross and remembering that life is permanent. I mean, life on this earth is temporary, and we have a permanent goal, which is heaven. We also remind each other that anytime there's a suffering, like Paul says, I rejoice in my suffering for your sake, because I complete what's lacking in Christ's suffering for the sake of his body, the church. This kind of suffering is unique suffering, because we're standing like Paul suffering, and Paul could have lied and said, “I don't believe Jesus is God,” who knows what, he would have gotten out of jail.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

What's wrong with you, Paul? What you're the stubbornnest guy, Paul.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

So, we remind each other that, if you're really sad, because your kids have trouble with this, and these bad things are happening, and it's hurtful? Well, you offer that up for Christ'. I'm offering it up for the conversion of my husband or my children. And it is really nice to have other people who will have that walk. And there was a woman who joined our call, most recently, and she was talking about how it's not like she chose to be a stander, to be separated faithful, it was already there. It was like she would have to unchoose to not do it.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right, in other words, what she chose was to be married, and what her spouse chose to do, she has no control over. And, given that he did, what he did, she didn't really have a choice. Right? I get that. And you know, this is where I really want to pause because the spiritual significance of what you guys are doing, and what you just said, is powerful. So, I want to underline it for everybody. And I want people to memorize that Bible verse because it's a very important Bible verse used to be much more prominent in Catholic subculture and the Catholic culture, that you offer things up, that unavoidable suffering is something we offer up. We accept it, we don't run from every form of suffering, because some suffering is unavoidable, and this is an example of an unavoidable pain that can be turned to good, that can be given to Christ united in the cross and used by Christ in however he thinks best, so it's a very deep kind of spiritual walk that it sounds like from multiple branches of Christianity people are, are cultivating that and clinging to that and understanding and growing within that, but it's completely countercultural, because our culture is telling us to be comfortable, literally at any cost.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Right? And then you think is there something wrong with me If I'm uncomfortable? Of course, you're sad, you're experiencing an injustice, give yourself permission to be sad, give yourself permission to cry, it's not bad if you cry, because some of the things that get on my nerves. It's like, “Well, you know, you didn't get over it. You know, if you're a mentally healthy person, you'd have gotten over it.” And the fact that you won't act like everything's good means that you're not over it yet. The same kind of talk that you talk about, meaning if your spouse dies, and you go through the stages of mourning? When you're done, you're actually done. Well, because divorce is the gift that keeps on giving. You're never done.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

You're not over it, because it's still in your life experience. And if I had been sexually abused by a priest when I was 13, that's wicked and evil. But it happened forty-some years ago. But if I'm divorced, which I am, we still have the kids trying to navigate, well, how do I have a relationship with mom and dad when mom believes this, and dad believes that? and then you bring in the stepparents and the step siblings, and it doesn't end. Then you have a holiday. One of the people in our group was trying to discern, what should he do about his divorce wife? He's a stander and his father died. So, his father died, and he's having a gathering after the funeral, and he's home and he's trying to discern, my wife is saying that she'd be willing to come and not bring her new civil partner, husband, you know? She's willing to come because she feels an affiliation to her father in law. But that's a difficult thing. Yes this woman did this to you and did this to you. And for her to come, it's not clear whether it would be a good thing for her to come or not a good thing to come. People in intact homes don't have to deal with that.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. And discern is the right word, because it isn't immediately obvious what the right answer is, there are all kinds of factors that would play into what's the right answer. In a situation like that.

And you're right, in an intact home, that's not even an issue. You don't have to worry about who gets the tickets to juniors’ graduation, when you only have so many tickets. Which set of grandparents and step grandparents? And it's never ending. And I want to pause and say that to tell people you should get over it, that the culture says the mark of mental health is to get over it. What our culture is really saying to us, the mark of being healthy is to be calloused to certain kinds of pain that people are going through. Right? In other words, if you got over it, that would mean that you're no longer concerned about the fact that this continues to be hard for your kids. Because if you got over it and chose another spouse, or your husband chooses another spouse, and so on. There's still going to be problems for the kids, for you to get over, It doesn't mean they got over it. It doesn't mean those moving around problems all went away. It means you're just not feeling anything about it anymore, because you're moving on with your life. Well, that doesn't strike me as particularly edifying.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Of course, it doesn’t help at large. what about all the people who were calloused about slavery?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

We can just sell people, split up families, we don't care.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right? No, we don't worry about that, the kids will be fine. The kids will be fine. No! they're not fine. They're really not fine.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

So many reasons that are legitimate reasons to separate on a moral perspective?

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Well, if my husband had been out committing adultery, repetitively, unapologetically, that is a morally legitimate reason to be separated. My children shouldn't be given scandal by a husband doing that. I'm not saying my husband ever did that. But in the civil forum, it makes things worse, because the court will say the kids have to, if dad wants to, have them go back and forth between homes.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

And if the dad doesn't want to pay as much child support, if he can figure out how to get the kids away from the mom, because he hires expensive lawyers. It's like the civil forums no-fault can do more harm than what it was before they got involved.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. That's right and exclude the non-offending spouse and put burdens on the non-offending spouse that wouldn't have been there if the state was not involved.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

And I don't see that the secular confused world is going to be pushing to correct this on the short term. And my hope would be that morally grounded people who are Bible believing or Catholics who kind of sense that what we're talking about makes sense, at least amongst ourselves in our own institutions, we could structurally change something.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Right? We could do a little bit better job of what we're dealing with. So Bai, I want to give you a chance to tell people where they can connect with you a little bit more maybe about the services that you offer. This book that you mentioned, I did not realize that you guys were the sole publishers of it, and that you'd had it translated. So, this looks like a winner. Can people connect with you about these, this monthly call that you guys have? Tell people a little about that?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Yeah, I'm just going to jump over to Mary's advocates to where things are in our menu, because the services that Mary's advocates provide are all under Resources. So, in the beginning, we were talking about that true marriage proclamation covenant, that's one of those items there, or a support network. So, if somebody wants to connect to this monthly call, or connect to others who are trying to get groups their own diocese, they can find that there, the book, “The Gift of Self” is there. Then there's things that we do about defending marriage that gets more into if somebody wants to try to invoke canon law or defend their rights in a Canon Law forum. Those are all this stuff is under Resources. There are tons of information under research, and to contact me it's just on the About Us section, find my contact information, my phone number and email address.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That is so stupendous that you'll put your phone number and email address out there.You do that for people.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Never been a problem.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Are there are diocesan resources, any place that you could recommend? Are there diocese that sponsor these groups, anything like that that's out there?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

The Archdiocese of Minneapolis had had a group for a while. I don't know what the status of that is right now. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia publicizes on the marriage and family office, this is the group that someone could join the phone call. Bishop Morlino, who passed God rest his soul in Madison, Wisconsin, they have this book on their website. He has “The Gift of Self” book on their website, those kinds of things.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Okay. But if I were a marriage and family life coordinator in a in a diocese, starting a group like this is a simple step that we could take, that proclaims by its existence, that this is the church's teaching about marriage and family. That marriage is permanent, marriage is a permanent covenant. And the people who are standing for their marriage are a very powerful witness to that truth. And so, any attention that we can call to those people, I think is something very positive. And I love it that y'all wear your wedding rings. I love it, that you never use the term ex-spouse. Because that term drives me crazy too. Because it's not true. There's no such thing. It’s not like my late husband, you could say my late husband who's dead, that means he's dead. But things like that, they add up and they have an impact that there's something bigger here than my immediate comfort and my immediate pleasure. That we have we have another, another home and other kingdom.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

That's beautiful. Thank You.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Oh, well, Bai do you have any parting words for us?

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

If you know anyone who's in a marriage crisis, do everything you can to encourage them to get the right kind of help.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

Yes. Don't be one of those people that says, Oh, honey, you deserve to be happy get out. Unless you really know what's going on. Yeah. Encourage them anyway.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Oh, get out can mean, I have a legitimate reason for temporary separation of spouses. Because I have this serious problem.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right.

Mrs. Bai MacFarlane

Home, is healing and reconciling. The goal is not to run them over and over divorce court.

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

That's right. And if you treat the innocent and the guilty in the same way, who benefits from that? The guilty gets off scot free and the innocent, are harmed by doing that kind of thing. So, that's parting word from Bai MacFarlane. If you're a Roman Catholic and you're in a situation where you are being petitioned for an annulment that you do not want, and you want to contest it, and you want to defend your marriage as best you can. And before the tribunal, Bai is a person who can really be a lot of help to you, and whether you're Catholic or not, if you believe in the sanctity of marriage. This aspect of defending marriage is extremely important. And I hope that you'll get in touch with Bai and her network of friends because she's got a number of networks —I think you can tell— networks of Catholics and non-Catholics alike who are committed to the idea of one man, one woman for life. I'm Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse, founder and president of the Ruth Institute. Thank you so much for being my guest today Bai. And thank you all for watching.


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